Bearing drive solution

Consequently, I am not sure how much end thrust most of our spindle bearings would take continuously. My lathe has ball thrusts either side of the drive pulleys and they have survived for about 50 years of hobby use. Never yet seen any that have failed (given sensible treatment – lube and setting up an cleanliness).

I have a pair of needle thrust bearings which I intend to install on the cross slide feedscrew of my Myford, as described George Thomas’s book ‘The Model Engineers Workshop Manual’. I now realise I don’t understand how these bearings work. In a taper roller bearing, the inner end of the roller is smaller than the outer to allow for the smaller circumference per revolution. In the needle thrust bearing, the rollers are parallel. Won’t that mean that the rollers are in a state of sliding or scrubbing rather than rolling? How do they work without friction? Am I missing something?

This needle thrust conundrum is something that I have often thought about. If the needles were perfectly parallel and the race surfaces dead flat then scuffing of some sort must take place so it would not be a 100% rolling bearing. Today though I found that some manufacturers of this type of bearing 'relieve' the ends of the needles to reduce stress points.

When using ball races it is a good idea to spring load one of the outer racesaxially. This ensures that there is a lways some force between ball and race so that the balls roll rather than skidding,at least that's the theory

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The thrust bearings called up are NTA 411 which are indeed needle roller type. https://www.motionindustries.com/productDetail.jsp?sku=00094460

It is ‘orses for courses’ and a variety of solutions are available to be used, as and when deemed sufficient or appropriate. One might consider when a simple spacer becomes a thrust washer – simply maintaining a position or resisting a directional force.

Baker bearing

To answer the original question, yes there will be some skidding in this type of bearing, so a drop of oil is a good idea, but it is obviously far less than the friction between two flat surfaces. The NTA 411 is rated to 26,000 RPM at 522 kg force so I think it will be OK on a cross-slide

I have engines with steel crank and cast iron crankcase and others with sreel crank and aluminium crankcase. Obviously each require a different preload, to take account of thermal expansion at running temperature, to achieve the permitted end-float (always positive, never zero – which might be ideal – because the bearings might be axially loaded).

You can also use accurately machined surfaces instead of hardened thrust washers to save space. This approach is endorsed by SKF.

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Bearing life is an inverse function of load, roughly a cube law I think. So there's a trade-off which needs careful control. Slight over-tightening can put large loads on the bearings.

Pre-load is required to ensure stiffness of the bearing assembly under load, esp. important with machine-tool spindles, gear shafts etc. Not so important with, say, vehicle wheel axles.

Home › Forums › Model Engineers’ Workshop. › Needle thrust bearings This topic has 24 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 18 October 2018 at 12:56 by Ian S C. Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 25 total) Author Posts 16 October 2018 at 08:34 #376153 Andrew Moyes 1Participant @andrewmoyes1 I have a pair of needle thrust bearings which I intend to install on the cross slide feedscrew of my Myford, as described George Thomas’s book ‘The Model Engineers Workshop Manual’. I now realise I don’t understand how these bearings work. In a taper roller bearing, the inner end of the roller is smaller than the outer to allow for the smaller circumference per revolution. In the needle thrust bearing, the rollers are parallel. Won’t that mean that the rollers are in a state of sliding or scrubbing rather than rolling? How do they work without friction? Am I missing something? Andrew Advert 16 October 2018 at 08:34 #38499 Andrew Moyes 1Participant @andrewmoyes1 16 October 2018 at 08:46 #376155 Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt Shh! Don't let on, or there are millions of thrust bearings across the planet that will cease to work… They are best for slow, high load applications. thrust ball races are best for high speed. In practice they just wear faster than ball thrust bearings. Not a problem for cross slides! Neil 16 October 2018 at 11:07 #376169 Clive Brown 1Participant @clivebrown1 Long time since I read the GHT write-up, but I suspect that he saw the greater longitudinal stiffness of roller bearings as a good reason for fitting them to his Myford feed-screws, as much as the friction benefit perhaps. 16 October 2018 at 12:21 #376176 John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699 I'm not totally familiar with the ML7, but it appears that there is some confusion in terms here. Thrust bearings are used to resist thrust on a shaft axially, whereas needle bearings act on rotational forces in the same way as ball and roller bearings do. See the arcticle on Arc Euro Trades site for clarification and explanation of the ML7 moification. **LINK** John Edit: spelling error Edited By John Hinkley on 16/10/2018 12:22:04 16 October 2018 at 12:37 #376180 MuzzerParticipant @muzzer Think again John. **LINK** Murray 16 October 2018 at 12:39 #376181 JasonBModerator @jasonb I think they are termen Needle thrust bearings so you don't get confused with ball thrust bearings   Edited By JasonB on 16/10/2018 12:42:40 16 October 2018 at 13:27 #376187 Ian S CParticipant @iansc The needle thrust bearings are ideally suited for this application, one of the main things for them is the low profile over a ball thrust race. Ian S C 16 October 2018 at 14:07 #376192 Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2 The thrust bearings called up are NTA 411 which are indeed needle roller type. https://www.motionindustries.com/productDetail.jsp?sku=00094460 To answer the original question, yes there will be some skidding in this type of bearing, so a drop of oil is a good idea, but it is obviously far less than the friction between two flat surfaces. The NTA 411 is rated to 26,000 RPM at 522 kg force so I think it will be OK on a cross-slide Robert. 16 October 2018 at 14:32 #376195 HOWARDTParticipant @howardt Needle thrust bearings are often used where a lower profile or small diameter are required when compared to ball or roller thrusts. One thing to bear in mind when mounting is that the housing washer is better fitted into a sized counterbore as there is no radial location as in a ball type which has a grooved track. I would normally fit the housing washer into a recess and the shaft washer onto the shaft of all thrust bearings to prevent the washers moving, but I accept it is not important on hand rotation. 16 October 2018 at 15:00 #376197 John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699 Murray/Muzzer and Jason, I've had a rethink and re-read the OP's post. I have misunderstood what he was getting at when he compared his bearings with taper roller bearings. I had ( wrongly, it appears ) to have thought he was referring to what I understand as taper roller bearings – i.e. like those used in lathe headstocks to support the spindle. Ignore my previous post – it's muddying the water. John 16 October 2018 at 17:03 #376213 Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt Posted by HOWARDT on 16/10/2018 14:32:20:

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Needle thrust bearings are often used where a lower profile or small diameter are required when compared to ball or roller thrusts. One thing to bear in mind when mounting is that the housing washer is better fitted into a sized counterbore as there is no radial location as in a ball type which has a grooved track. I would normally fit the housing washer into a recess and the shaft washer onto the shaft of all thrust bearings to prevent the washers moving, but I accept it is not important on hand rotation.

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Maybe you can enlighten why taper roller bearings always need careful adjustment for preload? Or am I misled on this operation?

Crankshaft in old Velo motorcycles ran in taper rollers. When rebuilding you had to shim one of the outer races so that the bearing was preloaded by deforming the crankcase when you bolted it together. No doubt this preload reduced when the while thing warmed up, but that would take several minutes.

If the whole point of needle thrusts is to minimise the overall axial length of a thrust bearing then another approach might be to use ball thrust bearings with very small balls. It seems to me that in the same radial distance that a needle occupies there could be several concentric ball thrust races.

It hows how influential ME was in 1947 that British Timken felt the need to respond to one of LBSC's lobby chats in such detail!

Maybe you can enlighten why taper roller bearings always need careful adjustment for preload? Or am I misled on this operation?

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The needle thrust bearings are ideally suited for this application, one of the main things for them is the low profile over a ball thrust race.

I'm not totally familiar with the ML7, but it appears that there is some confusion in terms here. Thrust bearings are used to resist thrust on a shaft axially, whereas needle bearings act on rotational forces in the same way as ball and roller bearings do. See the arcticle on Arc Euro Trades site for clarification and explanation of the ML7 moification.

Needle thrust bearings are often used where a lower profile or small diameter are required when compared to ball or roller thrusts. One thing to bear in mind when mounting is that the housing washer is better fitted into a sized counterbore as there is no radial location as in a ball type which has a grooved track. I would normally fit the housing washer into a recess and the shaft washer onto the shaft of all thrust bearings to prevent the washers moving, but I accept it is not important on hand rotation.

Maybe this relief effectively make the needles microscopically barrel shaped so that at light loads its nearer to point (rather than line) contact. In conventional ball races, I thought that the inner and outer race race ball grooves would always be exactly a true part of a circle, however I now know that a lot of technology is used to shape the groove to give the best performance and that parabolic and other profiles are used.

I don’t think tapered roller bearings are generally designed for excessive continuous thrust – they are only preloaded to a suitable amount so the bearing elements roll rather than skid.

I've had a rethink and re-read the OP's post. I have misunderstood what he was getting at when he compared his bearings with taper roller bearings. I had ( wrongly, it appears ) to have thought he was referring to what I understand as taper roller bearings – i.e. like those used in lathe headstocks to support the spindle. Ignore my previous post – it's muddying the water.

Long time since I read the GHT write-up, but I suspect that he saw the greater longitudinal stiffness of roller bearings as a good reason for fitting them to his Myford feed-screws, as much as the friction benefit perhaps.

Preload is required to minimise end play – as close to zero as possible. Wheel bearings should be tightened until they drag and then released by a fraction (or number) of flats of the securing nut (dependent on thread pitch and nunber of flats, of course). Running tight would overheat the bearing.

I don’t think tapered roller bearings are generally designed for excessive continuous thrust – they are only preloaded to a suitable amount so the bearing elements roll rather than skid.

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The needle roller bearing will take a fair hammering, they are used as thrust bearings in the power head of outboard motors, the one I'm thinking of was a 40hp Johnson(I think), and the bearing was one part that wasn't suffering from wear,

Apart form the conditional "excessive" (nothing is designed for excessive anything by definition), this is incorrect. One of the principle reasons for using TRBs is their ability to accept axial and mixed loads. The only conition is that a single row can only accept load in one direction. It's the taper on the rollers that allows them to roll without skidding.

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Ooops! ‘Bye ‘Bye Alibre Atom MEW 347 Guide Block Good bye Spindle bearings for a Delta drill press Anyone Else Having Radio Four Problems? Arduino Uno: Missing Libraries new life for old chuck EV Charging Is a tool & cutter grinder worth having? Discussion on the Future Direction of Model Engineer and Workshop